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Male user WHS 13 posts

Shakey,
That is the level of prepardness a person needs to be at if they are going to be packing… To me it is pretty basic. If you are going to pull a gun, you had better be ready to use it, and if you use it, you had better be ready to kill somebody, period. Those of us in the correctional/law enforcement field know, that threats without meaning are useless. Does this mean that everytime an officer pulls a gun, they have to shoot to kill – no. However, if they do, are they ready for that outcome? If not, then they should not pull the gun, and should probably find a different career.

Here is a situation: It’s chow time, and one inmate is standing out of line.
C/O Joe, “Inmate Smith, back in line”.
I/M Smith, “no problem boss”.

C/O Bill, “Inmate Smith, back in line”.
I/M Smith, “why man, what am I doing, I’m just standing here, come on Bill, what a load of crap, I’m not doing anything, what does it matter…” And Smith remains out of line.

What’s the difference between these two confrontations?

whs

 
Thinblueline riggsville 39 posts

Squeeze, Oh yes, I agree absolutely. Back when I was working transportation, my partner and I would do “what if” situations with each other. This is important for teams. You then know first how your partner is wired and you can work out kinks or shortcomings etc.

Be Safe

 
Lion Comfortably ... 154 posts

Been thinking about it for a few years. Still haven’t found the need to get mine yet. Of course I could “what if” it to death with all the scenarios of running into inmates on the street etc. But if it’s me against an inmate and 6 of his gangster buddies, I’ll be out gunned anyway, right? Also with young kids in the house, it’s not a convenient thing to have lying around. Of course, I could “lock it up” so they don’t get to it, but that would pretty much defeat the purpose of having quick access to it in a time of need, right? Like I said, I just haven’t found the need to get it, to be responsible and legal with it, it’s just not convenient or practical.Wouldn’t a ballistic vest be a better investment? Lol. What if his aim is better than yours and he’s more of a “professional gunfighter” than you are?

 
Flag shakey 191 posts

WHS, yes I get the point of readiness and being mentally prepaired to kill someone if need be but my responce to your last post was on the qoute you made that if you have to reach for a gun, someone is going to get shot and die.
you left no room for what the reason was or how the situation evolved to make you draw your weapon. and the fact that you would not use and think it’s silly to utilize that step in a Use of Forse situation.
Grant it when I started down this road in Law Enforcment back in the early 80’s we would have got royally reamed if we pull our handguns the way they do so casualy these days, There had better have been a good reason and the paperwork would have taken all night to complete. As for the tower guards in our state we have very few but the Institution that do, that post would go to the officer with the most senority during a pick a post, Plus the question on the post was a good ideal and how many of us carried. and as for his concern about former Inmates I have come across a few but they were more like “hey C/O” or just nod and keep on going about their business.
And your right, I would rather have someone with the capability/mentallity to make the right choice because we all know that senority does not go hand in hand with wisdom.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

the black and white I was refering to was a choice of options. You either do or you don’t. If you follow Hicks Law the more options you try to figure into a situation (leathal force assault) the longer your reaction time.Visualize the situations you most likely would find yourself in at work or when out in the world and play out the worst case scenario then plan possible solutions. this can help reduce reaction times if you should ever have to encounter those circumstances.Do this on a consistant basis and you will discovwer how well the outcome can be. This applies to many situations in life.

 
Thinblueline riggsville 39 posts

It is a “Use of Force” vs “Response to Resistance”. I have not drawn my firearm to “make” someone “do” something. I draw it to make them “stop” doing something. I know that is simplistic and somebody is going to “what if” me and I hope Major Tom doesn’t beat me up too bad, but think about it. They won’t get out of the transport van? No, you would not draw on them JUST FOR THAT. “Boss, I shot another one for not gettting out…” But an inmate shanking another in the back of the same van? “Yeah, I wanted him to quit killing the guy.”

I fear we are ourselves falling into the “what if” trap that we all see in firearm courses. These hypothectical situations trying to build a situation where we could or could not shoot someone. Life situations are not black or white. There are many grey areas. If you carry a firearm, on and/or off duty and you do not train with the same gusto that the bad guys train, and If you do not feel the need to atain a level of profeciency, and if you honestly can not see yourself, in a given situation, pulling the trigger and shooting someone center of mass, then WHY DO YOU CARRY? I believe even Dr. George Thompson, the founder of Verbal Judo® would ask the same question.

I personally, will do all that is REASONABLE to avoid having to hurt someone. I have used humor, reason, negotiation, the list goes on. But once “it” hits the fan, I am prepared to do what I have to, to defend me and mine…or die fighting. I wish not to die as the victims of Lubi’s in Texas, hiding. One armed and prepared sheepdog there, and there is a whole new story on the news.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

The power is not in the firearm, the person holding it. The firearm only has potential. You will never know if you are willling to pull the trigger untill you have no other choice. Been there. Don’t want to be there again if I don’t have to, but I know I can if I have too. That decision is always reactionary, DID I have another choice? It’s always black and white. I either did or I didn’t. It was only my faith and belief in God that I made the right choice. The balance is that where is the greater responsibility; save myself,partner,family,innocent bystander or the perpetrator? Sheepdog 1, wolf 0. It is a horrible thing to take another life in our society but it has to be done sometimes. If your in our business and in a position where you may have to make that decision then you had better have reconciled these issues with your consience.

 
Male user WHS 13 posts

Shakey,
You are missing my point… Yes, it is a step in the use of force, however if you are not mentally ready to take the next step then you have no business pulling the weapon.

Question, would you want just anybody in that tower with a rifle… I mean, heck we can train anybody to shoot. So, now we train Officer Bob, and he is a natural… Steady and accurate. But, Officer Bob is not ready to kill somebody, and guess what? Yup, think about it… Do you want Officer Bob, who will second guess before pulling the trigger covering your ass while you are walking the yard? Sure, his mere presence will deter most folks, but that is not what we are talking about here… Same with the Police or any type of law enforcement. When time comes to pull a weapon, you had better be 100% sure of the outcome. Otherwise, find a different job.

In our Institution, Tower Officers are screened in advance for just this very thing. They are mentally prepared to use that weapon for it’s intended purpose – to kill. The convicts know this. They are fully aware, that it is Officer Josephine that is in the tower, not Officer Bob. And she is 100% ready to do what may be necessary. It is out of this level of prepardness that has her respect the power of a firearm, and how to use it. When she shoots into the pad, the yard drops because everybody knows the next shot is for keeps. And guess what? The yard officers know this too.

WHS

 
Flag shakey 191 posts

Wow, I’m glad the Police don’t think like that or there would be a bunch of dead people everywhere. Just look at all the police encounters where they have drawn their weapons, using it as a step in the USE OF FORCE and that would be…anyone…anyone…SHOW OF FORCE, another step on the way up the ladder to DEALY FORCE and that is ment to stop the offender from doing anything to cause seriuos bodly harm/death to another.( Other wise you would hear BANG, BANG, instead of “Drop your weapon”) So no WHS you got it wrong. It goes alone the line that " If you pull your weapon, you had better be prepared to use it." not that you must, but might.

You are correct in your advise to obtain training for safety and responsibility. But for you to say.

“All too often people with a gun do not have a clue as to how, when, why or even if they are able to use it.” and then you go on to say “I will never flash a gun, or pat my side or any other silly thing like that. If I feel threatened enough that I need to reach for a gun, well… Somebody is going to get shot, and die.”

I think you need to recertify yourself, because I think you missed something during training a while back when you was a whee lass.

Good GOD people we are not the freaken law, we are the enforcers of it. So learn it before you make a very big misstake.

 
Male user WHS 13 posts

OfficerMerc,
My advise to you is this, if you have to ask you are not ready! Now, don’t get me wrong… I am not saying you should not, what I am saying is that you need to look very closely as to the responsibility of carrying. Then you need to take courses on handgun safety and responsibility. I say this, because all too often people with a gun do not have a clue as to how, when, why or even if they are able to use it.

Personally, you and everybody else needs to ask yourself; Are you ready to kill somebody? Because my training, ever since I was a whee lass, has been that guns are for killing – period. If I pull a gun, it with the full knowledge that somebody is going to die. It is not to “defend” myself, or “threaten” somebody, or try to “intimidate” them… It is to kill them.
While this may seem harsh, it is reality. I will never flash a gun, or pat my side or any other silly thing like that. If I feel threatened enough that I need to reach for a gun, well… Somebody is going to get shot, and die. If you are ready for this, then you are ready to carry a gun.

This is just my opinion.

WHS

 
Female user pamela45 5 posts

thank you so very much. my son and i write once a week to one another. and phone calls. he says he guarantees me to be a perfect part of society when he gets home. i know hw will. thank you all so very much. from a mom…pam

 
Thinblueline riggsville 39 posts

Pamela, I think that you will find within the Corrections community, more of us have experienced like situations with family members. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your son.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

I am famliar with the Iowa State Dept of Corrections. I turned down a command position there in the 90’s. They have good programs and caring professiionals. I too have had a wayward son. It took him alot of time and hard work to succeed but now at age 30 he is doing fine. Married a Police Chiefs daughter and is a productive cirtizen. Your son will get through this and be on a better path with the help of God and alot of prayer/hard work. Mine actually was an example for my other two sons how not to live life. I have the youngest waiting to grad from HS and then the army and the other workin hard. It takes them time to find their niche in life.Both eventually want to be police officers.Your son sounds smart and is obviously well reared by you but fell prey to an evil person and must pay his debt to society. After that he has a lot of life left to get it right if he chooses. A fathers perspective.

 
Female user pamela45 5 posts

I do understand. and i do appreciate it. i realize my son did the wrong thing. i guess it is a mother thing. im just so worrried about him. i am looking into counseling in anamosa iowa prison system for him. this is the first time hes ever been in trouble. not even a parking ticket. i do believe he needs help. i do thank you all for your input and honesty. thank you.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

If you listen to Dr. Laura you would understand that love is not enough these days.Pamela, you reared your son exactly as you should have. You don’t have to have "street smarts " to understand what is wrong or right. He knows that already. What he did was allow himself to be manipulated by a very evil woman and that can lead some men to do awful things.Mick is right, an obsession with the woman is a wiring problem with him. This is abnormal behavior and can be addressed with counseling. The unfortunate fact is that this will follow him the rest of his life. But nothing that can’t be overcome with hard work and direction. First the counseling. MIck, nice to hear from another perspective and culture. All my ancestors are from Ireland. Beginnig in Derry some 300 years ago, hope to visit some day.

 
Buckeye flag Mudflap 293 posts

Mick is a sharp dude.

 
Thinblueline riggsville 39 posts

Pamela, listen to Mick on this one. There is much more going on here. “Love and Trust” does not get a gun and rob a bank. There is help needed and there are many rehabilitative programs available in our prisons. Hope this helps.

 
Riot helmet Mick 307 posts

Pamela not to sound callous, but your Son was old enough to know that Armed Robbery is a very serious offence and to do it not only once but twice was both foolish and dangerous. I would suggest that what your son was suffering from was not love but obsession. Is he seeking psychiatric help in Prison? Because if he is not he should.

 
Female user pamela45 5 posts

THE GENTLEMAN THAT SUGGESTED THE READ ABOUT SHEEP. I WOULD LIKE TO SAY VERY WELL WRITTEN. IT WAS VERY INTERESTING. I WOULD LIKE TO TELL YOU SOMETHING. MY SON IS IN ANAMOSA IOWA STATE PRISON. HE IS THERE BECAUSE HE SCREWED UP. HE MADE A DECISION THAT WAS THE DUMBEST THING ANYONE CAN DO. HE GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL. WENT TO COLLEGE AND FELL IN LOVE. I REGRET NOT TEACHING HIM STREET SMARTS. I FORCED HIM TO READ. WRITE. HE IS BOOK SMART. I PUSHED EDUCATION. I PUSHED HIM INTO BEING A LOVING. TRUSTING HUMAN BEING. I NEVER TAUGHT HIM TO DISTRUST ANYONE. I TAUGHT HIM TO LOVE. TO TRUST. COMAPSSION. HONESTY. MY SON MET A GIRL IN COLLEGE. HIS FIRST LOVE. FELL IN HEAD OVER HEALS. BOUGHT HER EVERYTHING SHE WANTED. FOR 5 YEARS HE CATERED TO HER EVERY WHIM. ANYTHING SHE WANTED. HE BOUGHT IT FOR HER. HE WORKED HIS BUTT OFF. WHEN HE COULDNT AFFORD WHAT SHE WANTED. SHE WOULD TELL HIM THAT IF HE DID LOVE HER HE WOULD. IF HE COULDNT SHE WOULD LEAVE HIM. SO HE WOULD PAWN. SELL WORK OVERTIME. BUY WHAT SHE WANTED. SHE WOULD COME RIGHT BACK TO HIM. I TRIED TELLING HIM OVER AND OVER. THAT ISNT LOVE ON HER PART. LOVE IS NOT WHAT YOU CAN BUY TO KEEP IT. LOVE IS TRUST.HONESTY. NO MATTER WHAT. THRU THICK AND THIN. BUT. HE LOVED HER. HE REALLY DID. THIS WENT ON FOR OVER FIVE YEARS. SHE WOULD LEAVE HIM SE ERAL TIMES. HE WOULD BUY WHAT SHE WANTED. SHE WOULD COME BACK. SO ONE DAY SHE WANTED A NEW MUSTANG. SHE WOULD THROW THIS AT HIM FOR MONTHS. ONE DAY HE CALLED ME CRYING. SHE LEFT HIM. I TRIED TELLING HIM THAT IT WASNT LOVE SHE WANTED FROM HIM. IT WAS MATERIAL. BUT. WHAT I SAID WENT UNHEARD. HE WENT AND ROBBED A BANK. GAVE HER EVERY SINGLE PENNY.TOLD HER I GAVE IT TO HIM. SHE WENT A FREAKEN SPENDING SPREE. PAID HER CREDIT CARDS OFF. AND GOT A MUSTANG. WELL. LESS THAN THIRTY DAYS LATER. SHE LEFT HIM AGAIN. SHE EVEN TOLD ME ON THE PHONE THAT HE WASNT A REAL MAN. SHE SAID THAT A REAL MAN WILL DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GIVE THE WOMAN HE LOVES WHAT EVER SHE WANTED. HE ROBBED ANOTHER BANK. I LOST MY SON THAT DAY. BECAUSE HE LOVED…cooperlee7006@yahoo.

 
Cert logo STGSgt.gh0st 7 posts

An interesting read to say the least. I’ve been putting off getting my CCW for a few years now, but I think it’s about time I got one.

 
Buckeye flag Mudflap 293 posts

That’s always worth looking at again, Squeeze. Good link.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

I’ve been suggesting people read this excerpt, so here it is.
http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

 
Buckeye flag Mudflap 293 posts

Thanks, fioys. We need to be ready for anything, anytime, anyplace. Most people can’t grasp that concept. I also work hard to keep the job separated from home and visa-versa… it makes life a lot easier when I’m able to do that. Inmates and staff have commented that I never change from one day to the next.

 
Male user fioys 15 posts

Mudflap, the rason i wonder is because I keep most of what happens at work AT WORK and dont take it home to mu family. My wife and kids had no idea what was going on or why I did what i did. While this person was in the system, he hated me because I didn’t give him any slack and thought I was singling him out from the others. The ex-inmate is about 5 inches taller and about 20-30 pounds on me. If he wanted to he could of made the situation real bad. I did not show him anything but I did move my hand to my waist at the time that I recognized him behind me in the store.

 
Male user Squeeze 70 posts

Do you gamble on that scenario? Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. We had a correctional officer a few years ago who was severely beaten at a Tavern by former inmates. I realize that staying out of the tavern would have been the better choice but do we allow them to dictate where we go in the free world. My own experiences have led me to realize I am a potential target while still understanding the probability of a deadly force assault is unlikely. However it still happens.I don’t take that chance when my family is with me and I have a resposability to my family to stay healthy. We think nothing of all the other safety precautions we take in daily life why is carrying any different. As the Col. said"an armed society is a polite society."

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